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« Terri Schiavo: R.I.P. CodeBlueBlog Summarizes the Case, Answers Critics, And Offers Further Explanations | Main | Terri Schiavo R.I.P. Part III: The Brain Speaks »

Comments

Maggie4life

Was it just her knee that was x-rayed. I thought that the report mentioned an x-ray that showed no abnormality but there was lordosis of the spine. I could be wrong of course.

That is a good question about the bone bruise. If it is a bone bruise then it would not show up as an abnormality when it first happened. This is what is so irksome when one has been injured and the result comes back with no discernible fractures (tell that to my left foot and ankle !!)

It is possible to have a fall that causes injury such that it hurts like one thing and the x-ray shows nothing in the way of fractures. I have had falls like that, but there has been some sign of bruising, usually a few days after the fall. My knees are a favourite spot for that kind of injury. When you fall on your knees, especially in train carriages or even out of a lift, it can hurt like you cannot believe and then have an x-ray that does not point to a fracture. Even when one falls and sprains the ankle to the point of severe bruising the x-ray can end up with no fracture present. This has happened to me, and the pain from the injury did not go away for several months.

Keep asking the questions, because I think that we are moving in the right direction.

I am starting to think that some form of injury happened that caused the collapse. It could be that she had the bone bruise at that time, but it was ignored for other reasons. It does not matter because Terri was bedridden at that point in time. I think that the stiff neck is the key to the type of injury suffered. I would like to know if MS was familiar with the martial arts, since in that discipline it is possible to asphyxiate someone without a struggle, as well as without leaving any marks on the body that points to strangulation.

Even though I think she was injured at the time, I am also beginning to see that it is probable that Terri also suffered massive injury after her admission to the hospital, or at least some time in the first month of her hospital admission. Dr Hamilton consulted Terri whilst she was still in the hosptial. Why? Other possibilities come to mind about the extensive fractures. Did Michael drop the rail so that Terri would fall out of bed? A fall of that nature causes a mighty big bump and could lead to the fracture in L1.

These are just thoughts that I am tossing around.

Maggie4life

I have a stupid question: why was Terri given a blood transfusion?

purple_kangaroo

You were right, Maggie . . . at least according to some sources her "cervical spine" was also x-rayed. I'm not sure if that means just her neck or more of her back.

retired doc

Maggie-, when was the blood transfusion given? Purple-do you have a link for the neck xrays?
--- The 3-5-91 bone scan states "...focal abnormal areas of nuclide accumilation of intense type." Involvement includes multiple bilateral ribs, several thoracic vertebral bodies, L1, both sacroiliac joints the distal right femoral diaphysis, both knees and both ankles. L1 and the distal femur have associated xray findings of unknown origin. It has been suggested that the hot spots are due to trauma or fractures. It is hard to imagine how there could be fractures of many vertebra, many ribs, both sacroiliac joints, both knees, and both ankles in view of the known clinical history. The metaboloc process suggested by Dr. Killibrew could explain all but two of these many hot spots.

lisa

maggie:

while you lack real expertise in radiology, endocrinology, neurology -- and other medical
"ologies" -- you certainly fill in those empty spaces with a rich imagination!

for every possible -- but unsubstantiated -- scenario, you aptly launch into cyberspace an equally uncorroborated [and therefore teflon-coated!] factoid... ranging from abuse to rape to murder to mayhem. of course, i probably err because you might speak from personal experiences. note that i shift often between the realms of the probable to the possible... yet never present either as The Truth. see! i do learn!

the teflon coat applied to such dramas is likely sufficient to protect a person from charges of defamation-libel-slander. that is, in fact, the thrill of the game, n'est-ce pas? to dream up a malicious cause that can neither be proven nor disproven, and to apply said malice to an effect?

because: "if-maggie-can-imagine-it...it-must-be-so" is without doubt one of the immutable laws of the universe.

there is a place for forensic medicine. thankfully, that place is peopled by real experts.

i am not a health professional, nor do i play one on t.v... i do appreciate occam's razor, however --
as well as the sound of the four-beat gait of the tennessee walking horse in lieu of the zig-zagging zebra.

and... wait for it... SCENE! thank you everyone, that's a wrap.

soxfanpfs3

Lisa;

I do not yet know what I believe about this whole tragic affair, but if I understand Occam's Razor correctly, then the best explanation for a phenomenon should be the simplest one. But does that mean that a more complicated explanation CAN'T be or is NEVER correct? I accept that one should START with the simplest explanation, but one shouldn't STOP there if the simple explanation seems deficient in any way.

Again, I don't know what I believe yet because I haven't seen all of the undisputed facts. But it does seem to me that there are undisputed factual aspects about this whole affair which are very unsettling.

Start at the beginning (or retroactive reconstruction of the beginning)


http://www.hospicepatients.org/police-report-02-25-90-terri-schiavo-collapse.pdf


This is what the Pinellas Police Department cooked up from the original microfilm of the February 1990 of Terri's collapse. Why didn't they produce the original microfilm?

Why did the paramedics find Terr face down? Michael Schiavo says that is the way he found her after the "thud". If he didn't know what was happening to her, why didn't he turn her over. Wouldn't you have?

Susan Nunes

As I've said repeatedly, the Michael groupies can NEVER explain his behavior from "loving husband" in the early years to a man who wanted his wife dead the minute he got the settlement money.

It's undisputed fact, and none of his defenders can explain it away.

That's why I will NEVER believe a thing this man says, and why his whole claim of what Terri's wishes were is completely phony on its face.

It doesn't matter whether or not if there's a dime in her trust account now.

Nobody can argue otherwise, because it is indefensible.

Maggie4life

Lisa,

go back to Occam's razor where you belong. Let the rest of us work on the real issues whilst you stay in dreamland. That way when Michael Schiavo is charged with the murder of his wife you can just sit back and act like it was just a dream.

Maggie4life

Retired doc,

I will find the link for you after I have done a few chores. Hee hee, I need to get myself moving or I will continue getting stiff in my spine from lack of movement. ;-)

purple_kangaroo

Yes, and Michael also testified under oath more than once that he rolled Terri over onto her back, and yet the police record says she was found on her face.

Maggie4life

Retired doc,

hee hee, I have not taken that tyre to get fixed yet, but I did find the information about the blood transfusion. If you go here:
http://www.zimp.org/stuff/
and check out the Humana discharge sheet, you will find mention of the blood transfusions on page 6. It is at the top of the page, where it says that there were repeated CT scans and then it says, she also required blood transfusions.

Maggie4life

Did you notice that in that report it states that Michael does not know why she would try to commit suicide?

retired doc

The limited summary does not explain why blood was given. The answer might be in the chart. No major bleeding was mentioned. One BP was noted, systolic 90 on dopamine drip. There was a rapid pulse. The red blood cell count and the hematocrit were not mentioned. The white counts were high with a left shift, suggesting infection. The blood total protein was low. This was attributed to malnutrition. The patient gained weight while in the hospital. The chest xray report on admission describes no obvious rib fractutes or other abnormalities. Sputums gave positive bacterial cultures and IV antibiotics were given Right knee swelling developed but the knee xray was negative. Could this be relevant to the periosteal abnormality that developed later?

purple_kangaroo

lisa, the problem is that pretty much every doctor who has examined Terri and her records says that the bulemia/heart attack theory does not explain all the evidence such as broken bones, the particular combination of blood tests she had, etc. The bulemia theory is just that--a theory--and was never proven in court or otherwise.

Maggie4life

I think I have stumbled upon a possibility of how it might be possible for an attempted strangulation to take place without leaving marks on the neck.

I have just seen on the TV a report about restraining methods used by the Queensland Police. The report concerned a young man who is now in a worse state than Terri was in those video clips. He was a schizophrenic and had an episode. He had wandered off, and the police were called to find him. They used capsicum spray and they seemed to have restrained him in some way.

The video shot on the TV showed the police in action at a club. The police officer placed his arm around a young man that was close enough to his neck. It suddenly clicked that if there was an attempted strangulation and no sign of a beating on Terri that morning, it could be that the force came from the forearm of the offender, and not the palms of the hands.

This is conjecture as to how Terri ended up with hypoxic brain injury.

Maggie4life

Retired Doc,

thank you so much for your input and for me it is beginning to make some sense. As a non-professional, I can only look for the unusual things, and your own professional training has assisted me to at least get into perspective the existence of an infection in these results. I wonder if the infection is but a side issue because it really does seem to me that Terri was unwell when she collapsed, and not because of any bulimia.

One can be malnourished without being a bulimic and at the same time being quite obese. From what I understand about nutrition any diet that is not based upon the five food groups could cause some malnourishment. I have in mind something that I saw from a program called "you are what you eat" and the "doc" was quite emphatic that the poor eating habits of an obese person also causes malnourishment.

You are right because we do not have access to the charts that would yield further information on why a blood transfusion was given.

I take your point about the knee. I agree that it is odd that the x-ray showed a normal result and then a few short months later her knee became a hot spot. Now this is where I have to pick brains, if her knee had suffered a bone bruise could this explain the fact that it became quite stiff whilst still in Humana hospital? Falling heavily on one's knees is extremely painful and yes it can cause stiffness. Another question: could this be a sign that her ligaments and tendons were injured in some way as a result of the trauma?

retired doc

Maggie-, it's not just the knee. The report describes involement of multible thoracic vertebra, multiple bilateral ribs, both sacroiliac joints, both knees and both ankles. Is it really likely that there are 16 to 20+ fractures, often symetrical. In my opinion a metabolic process seems a far more likely explanation for the findings. Excluding of course the minor compression fracture of L1 and the distal femoral periosteal abnormality. I am sure that the full body xrays performed in conjunction with the autopsy will be examined carefully. If thay are negative will MS and the other caregivers deserve apologies?

purple_kangaroo

Full body x-rays performed in an autopsy some 15 years later won't show old bone bruises. They also won't explain any of the following:

The police report, Bobby Schindler, and Mr. Schindler's account of what happened the night Terri collapsed all agree that Terri was FACE-DOWN when Bobby and paramedics arrived.

Bobby's and Mr. Schindler's testimony agrees that Michael called Mr. Schindler when Terri collapsed, and didn't call 9-1-1 until Schindler told him to.

They agree that Schindler was the one who called Bobby.

The police report says that the incident happened at 5:40, was dispatched at 6:11, and arrived at 6:33. It doesn't say the time of the call, but I think it would be pretty safe to assume that it happened within minutes of dispatch. This gives about 20 minutes between the time Michael originally reported to 9-1-1 dispatchers that he found Terri collapsed, and the time he actually called 9-1-1. This would seem to support the Schindlers' testimony that Michael did not call 9-1-1 immediately.

Here is Michael's testimony:

1 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 PROBATE DIVISION
CASE NO. 90-2908-GD3
3 ______________________________________

4 IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF
THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
5
Incapacitated.

6 ______________________________________

7 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, AS GUARDIAN OF THE
PERSON OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
8
Petitioner,
9 APPEAL
vs.
10
ROBERT SCHINDLER AND MARY SCHINDLER,
11
Respondents.
12 ______________________________________

13 BEFORE: GEORGE W. GREER
Circuit Court Judge
14
PLACE: Clearwater Courthouse
15 Clearwater, FL 33756

16 DATE: January 24, 2000

10 Q Michael, tell me what occurred on

11 February 25, 1990.

12 A I got home late from work that night. I

13 came in the house. Terri woke up. She heard me.

14 I gave her a kiss good night. She gave me a kiss

15 good night. A few hours later, I was getting out

16 of bed for some reason and I heard this thud. So

17 I ran out into the hall and I found Terri on the

18 floor. I knelt down next to her and I turned her

19 over because she sort of fell on her face. On her

20 stomach and face.

21 I turned her over going, "Terri, Terri.

22 You okay?" She kind of had this gurgling noise.

23 I laid her down and ran over and called 911. I

24 was hysterical. I called 911. I called her

25 brother, who lived in the same complex as we did.


39
1 I ran back to Terri. She was not moving. I held

2 her in my arms until her brother got there. I

3 rocked her. I didn't know what to do. I was

4 hysterical. It was a horrible moment.

5 Q Do you know how long it was before the

6 paramedics came?

7 A Had to be a good six minutes or so.

8 Q What happened when the paramedics came?

9 A I moved away. Her brother was sitting

10 in the kitchen around the corner. I moved away

11 and they started working on Terri. They put the

12 leads on. I heard them say she is flat line.

13 Start CPR. I am standing there going what is

14 happening here? Why is this happening? Why isn't

15 her heart beating? I was just a mess. I was

16 hysterical.

17 Q Where did the paramedics take her?

18 A To Humana Northside, St. Pete.

19 Q Did you ride with the paramedics?

20 A Yes. I did.

http://www.geocities.com/purple_kangaroo_angela/1990-1991/Michael24jan2000guardianship-p1-89.txt

-----------------------------

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 CIVIL DIVISION
CASE NO. 92-939CI-15
3

4 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, individually )
and as guardian of THERESA )
5 SCHIAVO, an incompetent, )
)
6 Plaintiff, )
)
7 vs. )
)
8 JOEL S. PRAWER, M.D. and )
G. STEPHEN IGEL, M.D., )
9 )
Defendants. )
10 ______________________________/

11

12
DEPOSITION OF: MICHAEL SCHIAVO
13
TAKEN: Pursuant to Notice by
14 Counsel for Defendant
G. Stephen Igel, M.D.
15
DATE AND TIME: July 27, 1992; 9:05 a.m.
16
12 Q Okay. Let me go to the day of the attack,

13 and I understand that was 2/25/90; is that correct?

14 A Correct.

15 Q What had you done the night before?

16 A I was at work.

17 Q And I understand that 2/25/90 was a Sunday;

18 is that right?

19 A Right. Correct. Right.

20 Q And what do you recall about that morning?

21 A Of the incident?

22 Q Yes, I'm sorry. What time had you gotten in?

23 A I didn't get in until like 12:30, something

24 like that, 1:00. We had late parties that day at the

25 restaurant.

___

p.99 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q Was your wife awake when you got in?

2 A No.

3 Q Did you talk to her at all before you went to

4 bed?

5 A She said good night to me.

6 Q Okay. In other words, you went -- you

7 crawled in bed and she said good night?

8 A Yep.

9 Q What's the next thing you recall after that?

10 A Next thing I recall is I'm getting out of bed

11 for some reason, and I heard her fall and hit the

12 floor.

13 Q You were getting out of bed?

14 A For some reason.

15 Q How far is the bed from the place where she

16 fell?

17 A About seven feet.

18 Q What kind of floor are we talking about,

19 carpeted or --

20 A Carpeted, yes.

21 Q Okay. And where was it that she fell?

22 A In the hallway outside the bathroom door.

23 Q Were her feet still in the bathroom?

24 A I don't recall if they were or not; I don't

25 think so.

___

p.100 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q Could you tell whether or not from where she

2 was positioned if she had -- was coming from the

3 bathroom?

4 A I couldn't tell.

5 Q Was the bathroom light on?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Is it normally kept on overnight?

8 A No, it's not.

9 Q Would it then be fair to assume that she had

10 turned it on?

11 A She would have to, yes.

12 Q Okay. Was there any sound in the bathroom

13 that you heard, either before or after you -- after she

14 fell that would indicate that she might have been using

15 either the sink or the toilet in the bathroom?

16 A No sounds at all.

17 Q How was she dressed?

18 A She had a night shirt on with pants, with --

19 Q Underpants?

20 A I think they were sweat pants.

21 Q Oh, okay. Sweat pants?

22 A Yeah.

23 Q Was the night shirt something she would have

24 slept in?

25 A Yes. Yeah.

___

p.101 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q How about the sweat pants?

2 A She slept in them.

3 Q She slept in sweat pants and a night shirt?

4 A Oh, yeah.

5 Q Okay. It's cold in February, oh, yeah.

6 A It's cold.

7 Q So that would have been her sleeping attire?

8 A Some nights, yes.

9 Q Okay. Were there any other lights on that

10 you noticed beside the bathroom light?

11 A Yes.

12 Q What other light?

13 A It was just a night light that we have out in

14 the kitchen that goes on when it gets dark.

15 Q Okay. That wasn't one that someone would

16 have turned on?

17 A No. No.

18 Q Other than that, were there any other lights

19 on?

20 A No.

21 Q Did you hear her when she got out of bed?

22 A No, I did not.

23 Q Do you know why she got out of bed?

24 A Looks like she was doing something with the

25 cats.

___

p.102 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q You had some cats?

2 A Uh-huh.

3 Q That's a yes?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. Were the cats in the house at the

6 time?

7 A Yes.

8 Q How many cats did you have?

9 A Two.

10 Q You said something with the cats, what do you

11 mean by that, playing with them or letting them out or

12 what?

13 A Could be. No. They were indoor cats.

14 Q Okay. Why do you say it looks like she was

15 doing something with the cats?

16 A Because they both came walking out of the

17 bathroom when I ran out there.

18 Q Oh, okay.

19 A They could have jumped over her or whatever.

20 I don't know if she was doing something with the cats

21 or not.

22 Q Oh, okay.

23 A It just looked to be like she was.

24 Q Now, what -- when you saw her, do you know

25 what time it was?

___

p.103 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 A I believe it was almost five a.m..

2 Q When you saw her, how was she lying; in other

3 words, on her back or --

4 A On her back.

5 Q Did she make any sound at all before she fell

6 that you heard?

7 A No, not -- I didn't hear any sounds before

8 she fell.

9 Q What did you do, then, after you --

10 A After she fell?

11 Q After you found her in hallway.

12 A I was -- I was to her within two seconds. I

13 seen she stopped breathing, I ran to the phone, called

14 911 within five seconds and panicked.

15 Q What did you do, then, after that?

16 A I went over to her, I -- I thought maybe --

17 I just started talking to her and holding her; I didn't

18 know what to do.

19 Q Did you try any CPR?

20 A No.

21 Q You mentioned you saw that she stopped

22 breathing. What did you do?

23 A When she stopped breathing?

24 Q No. No. No. How did you determine that,

25 that she had stopped breathing?

___

p.104 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 A Because I felt her chest and I heard her gasp

2 once, you know, and --

3 Q Okay. Then what happened?

4 A I immediately went over and called 911.

5 Q Okay. After -- after 911 and after you were

6 holding her, what was -- what then happened, was the

7 next thing that happened?

8 A I laid Terry down, I went over and called

9 my -- I remember my brother-in-law lived in the same

10 complex; I called him.

11 Q Called brother-in-law?

12 A Uh-huh.

13 Q What is his name?

14 A Robert.

15 Q Schindler?

16 A Correct.

17 Q And what happened then, who came first?

18 A He was there within minutes, within -- I'm

19 sorry, seconds, because he just lived right around the

20 corner, and as soon as he came up, the paramedics

21 pulled up.

22 Q How long did it take the paramedics to get

23 there?

24 A Four minutes, five minutes; at the most, six,

25 seven minutes.

___

p.105 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q What did you and Robert do, if anything --

2 A Nothing.

3 Q -- before the paramedics got there?

4 A Nothing we could do. I didn't know what to

5 do..

6 Q Okay. And then what happened? It's my

7 understanding that the fire department got there first

8 and then the paramedics came; do you recall that?

9 A I don't recall that at all.

10 Q Okay.

11 A I'm sorry, yeah, the fire department -- the

12 paramedic fire department --

13 Q Right.

14 A -- got there first.

15 Q Right. And what happened then?

16 A They looked her over and started CPR and --

17 Q Okay.

18 A And I went out and I was just spastic in the

19 living room.

20 Q Were there any medications kept in the

21 bathroom?

22 A None.

23 Q Where did you keep your medications?

24 A In the kitchen cabinet in the little bin we

25 had.

___

p.106 of MS Depo Med Mal Pt 4 072792.pdf

1 Q And what medications were present? And you

2 might have mentioned it before, but on that date.

3 A On that date, the Valrelease, the Percocet, I

4 think, or --

5 Q Or Tylenol?

6 A Tylenol, whatever it was.

7 Q Anything else?

8 A Not that I can recall.

9 Q What happened then? How long were the

10 paramedics there, as far as you can recall.

11 administering to your wife?

12 A I don't recall. It was just -- they were

13 there working on her for a while.

14 Q And then what happened?

15 A And then the ambulance got there and they

16 transported her to Humana, and I even think the

17 paramedics went with her.

18 Q Did you then go to Humana?

19 A I went with them, yes.

http://www.geocities.com/purple_kangaroo_angela/Malpractice/malpractice27jul1992michael.txt

------------------------------

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

2 CASE NO. 92-939-15

3 ----------------------------------X
BARNETT BANK TRUST COMPANY as :
4 Guardian of the Property of :
THERESA SCHIAVO and MICHAEL :
5 SCHIAVO, individually, :
:
6 Plaintiffs, :
:
7 vs. :
:
8 G. STEPHEN IGEL, M.D. :
:
9 Defendant. :
----------------------------------X
10
BEFORE: The Honorable PHILIP A. FEDERICO
11 Circuit Judge

12 PLACE: Courtroom B
Pinellas County Courthouse
13 Clearwater, Florida 34616

14 DATE: November 5, 1992

15 TIME: Commencing at 9:00 A.M.

16 Q. Do you recall the early morning of February 25th,

17 1990?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. That was the morning early when you woke up to

20 Terry's collapse?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And the EMS people came?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And finally got her breathing started?

25 A. Yes.

___
11


1 Q. And she was taken off to Humana Northside in an

2 ambulance or EMS emergency vehicle?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. When she got there, you went with her?

5 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. (BY MR. DEACON:) We have some photos of your

13 wife. When was the last time you saw her before her

14 collapse on February 25, 1990?

15 A. The last time I saw her?

16 Q. yes, sir.

17 A. The 24th.

18 Q. What time of day did you see her on the 24th?

19 A. Late at night.

20 Q. Okay. Would that be when you got off work?

21 A. It was a Saturday night, so probably 11:30, 12:00

22 by the time I got home.

23 Q. Where were you working at that time?

24 A. Agastino's Restaurant.

25 Q. What time did they close the restaurant?

___
42


1 A. Stopped serving 10:00, and if people were walking

2 in a quarter to ten, they serve them.

3 Q. You recall approximately what time you got home

4 that evening?

5 A. 11:30, 12:00.

6 Q. Your wife up?

7 A. I don't recall if she was up or not.

8 Q. Do you recall whether or not you had any

9 conversation with her that night?

10 A. I might have. I don't remember the conversation.

11 Q. Okay. Would it be fair to assume that you don't

12 recall anything out of the ordinary happening as far as your

13 wife, her condition or anything about her that evening?

14 A. Nothing out of the ordinary, no.

15 Q. She seemed fine to you; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was the last time you saw her before you

18 went to bed that night, in other words, when you, after you

19 got off from Agastino's?

20 A. The last time I saw her? Rephrase that question.

21 Q. That was a Saturday, was it, not the 24th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So, she did not work; is that correct?

24 A. No, she didn't.

25 Q. What time did you get up to go to work?

___
43


1 A. Being it was a Saturday, Friday night I probably

2 got home late, I usually don't get up until 10:00, 10:30.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not she was there

4 when you got up?

5 A. No, she usually did her food shopping when I was

6 sleeping.

7 Q. You don't recall seeing her that morning?

8 A. Not that early.

9 Q. All right. Up to the time of her collapse, what

10 was her condition as far as you can observe?

11 A. What do you mean by condition?

12 Q. Did she seem healthy, the same old Terry?

13 A. She seemed like my wife.

14 Q. Okay. Well, you know, did she seem healthy is

15 actually my question?

16 A. To me, yeah.


http://www.geocities.com/purple_kangaroo_angela/Malpractice/malpractice5nov1992michael.txt

--------------------------------------------

CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Interview With Michael Schiavo

Aired October 27, 2003 - 21:00 ET


KING: Let's go back. What happened, Michael, on February 25, 1990?

SCHIAVO: I work late at night. I used to run -- manage restaurants. I came home around 2:00 in the morning, climbed into bed.

KING: No children?

SCHIAVO: No children. Terri and I were trying to have children. We were back and forth to a doctor for a year or so, trying to find out why we weren't getting pregnant.

Climbed into bed. Terri said good night to me. Gave me a kiss. She woke up, said good night, gave me a kiss. I gave her a kiss back. I'd say, about 4:30 in the morning, I was, for some reason, getting out of bed and I heard a thud in the hall. I race out there and Terri was laying in the hall. I went down to get her. I thought, Well, maybe she just tripped or whatever. I rolled her over and she was lifeless. And it almost seems like she had this last breath.

So I held her in my arms, and I'm trying to shake her up. I ran over, I called 911. Her brother happened to live in the same complex as we did. I called him. I went back to Terri. And from there, six, seven minutes later, the paramedics...

KING: And the way she is now is the way she was that night?

SCHIAVO: That night she was totally unconscious.

KING: And later what developed? She opened her eyes open?

SCHIAVO: Probably about a month later, she opened her eyes.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/27/lkl.00.html

---------------------

Fox News

This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," February 24, 2005.

GARY FOX, 1992 ATTORNEY FOR SCHIAVOS: What happened, Greta, as best we know, is that Terri had a condition known as bulimia (search). It's an eating disorder. She'd had it for many years. She grew up as a chubby, overweight child, and over time, she coped with that condition by developing this eating disorder, bulimia.

One night, Michael and Terri had had dinner. And she had had a large meal, and not long after the meal, he heard a thumping sound in the couple's bathroom, went to investigate, found Terri lying on the floor of the bathroom. She had just purged, apparently, or vomited, binged, which is what bulimics do and had a heart attack. And by the time that fire rescue arrived at the Schiavo home, why, she had suffered severe brain damage.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148756,00.html

They also won't explain why Michael Schiavo testified over and over under oath that Terri ate normally and he never saw any sign of purging, and also testified under oath in 2002 that bulemia was never proven in the malpractice trial, that it was just a theory--and then in a Larry King Live interview he said,

"KING: What was the diagnosis? What happened to her?

SCHIAVO: What we can fathom right now is her potassium level was very low. More than likely, bulima. Her potassium was very, very low. She had a 2.0, which caused cardiac arrest.

KING: Was she a bulimic?

SCHIAVO: When I was with her, when we were together, Terri would eat and eat and eat.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ...throwing up her meals? SCHIAVO: Right. Bulimia, as from I've learned over the years, is a very secretive disease. Terri's electrolyte balance in her body that day -- she had a 2.0 potassium. Now potassium feeds your heart, makes your heart pump. "

And, the autopsy won't explain why at least 5 witnesses testify to Michael being an abusive man, doing things like stalking a former girlfriend and running ehr off the road, monitoring Terri's gas mileage and getting angry when she spent money, leaving bruises on Terri in the past, etc . . . and why two witnesses agree that Terri called them (a girlfriend and her brother) crying, very upset and saying that Michael and she had a huge fight the night before her collapse and that she was considering getting a divorce, but Michael claims none of those things ever happened.

The problem is, when you have 2-3 or 5-6 witnesses whose testimony agrees, and empirical evidence that supports that testimony, and then you have ONE person whose story differs--even disagreeing with his own testimony given earlier--which are you going to believe?

purple_kangaroo

BTW, Judge Greer didn't rule that the testimony about Michael's abusiveness was errenous . . . he ruled that it wasn't relevant and neither was evidence of broken bones, etc. because it happened so long ago and had no bearing on whether Terri would want to live in her present condition or not.

Oh, and here are a few more documents about Michael:

Background info. on Michael: http://www.zimp.org/stuff/01%20-%20MICHAELSCHIAVOPROFILE.htm


Testimony of one of Terri's coworkers and best friends: http://www.zimp.org/stuff/04%20-%20JACKIERHODESTESTIMONY.htm


Deposition of Michael's former girlfriend: http://www.zimp.org/stuff/06%20-%20CindyShookDepo.htm

A physchological expert witness profiles Michael: http://www.zimp.org/stuff/16%20-%20DrCaroleLiebermanProfile.htm

purple_kangaroo

Another question about the bone injuries . . . in the trial testimony it was mentioned several times that Terri had been in a car accident at some time previous to her collapse. Couldn't that possibly have caused some of these broken bones?

retired doc

purple- why do you continue to claim that there were multiple fractures? The chest xray on admission showed no rib fractures. On admission there was no reported clinical evidence of fractures. A later knee xray showed no fracture. Periosteal new bone formation can have many different causes including infection, which Terri is known to have. There was one minor fracture of the superior plate of L1 but this could have been old or recent. Regardless of what has been suggested on this site, nuclear bone scans DO NOT show fractures. They show metabolic activity. There are dozens of possible causes. I agree with Dr. Killebrew that the 16 to 20 + largely symetrical hot spots may have been from metabolic activity. I might even consider normal variation in an bed fast patient gaining weight on tube feedings. It would take a true expert in nuclear medicine to address this possibility. At a conference I did once see a hot spot from a fracture more that 10 years old but this is not common.
--I do agree that the autopsy will not explain memory and police report differences 15 years after the fact. Incidently since retirement several years ago I have been a police volunteer. It can be interesting to see some of the reports that they write while on a hurry to another call or after a long night on patrol. I do some ride alongs and work with reports almost daily. Currently the officers write some reports with their right hand on a computer will driving at night with their left hand and looking for perps.

Maggie4life

Retired Doc,

they do not show metabolic activity, what they show is a reaction to the injection of the nuclear chemical into the body. When the machine goes over the body, it picks up where there is a lot of activity. If it is intense activity as described in the report, then further investigation is required.

Also, the only x-ray report listed from Humana hospital related to her knee and there was nothing abnormal in the x-ray. I do not recall an x-ray of her ribs, but do recall that there was an x-ray of her spine that indicated everything was normal.

Terri did not have bulimia. Her doctor was controlling her weight loss from what I could see from the malpractice deposition.

Also, it is interesting to note that Mr Fox, the lawyer who handled the malpractice suit got it very wrong about what happened, and also that Schiavo went along with it, with his "bulimia is a secret disease". If the bulimia was to have been substantiated there should have been more medical and psychiatric evidence available that would point to the disease. That evidence is not there. She did not show any of the other signs of bulimics such as obsessive compulsive disorder. That leaves only the word of MS and he cannot even get the date of his wedding correct.

purple_kangaroo

Sorry, I thought there were two fractures and multiple "hot spots" that could have been either fractures or bone bruises, but they didn't know which since those spots weren't x-rayed.

Also, didn't Terri's potassium levels normalize pretty quickly after she was hospitalized? Would that be consistent with a long-term nutritional cause for the imbalance?

As for the car accident theory, I thought I had read that in a transcript but now I can't find it . . . one did refer to "terri's accident" but it was referring to her collapse. If anyone has time to look through the transcripts and find out if there was an auto accident and when it took place, that would be interesting.

One thing that bothers me about the differences in Michael's testimony between each other and everyone else's testimony is this: He couldn't remember something important like the details of Terri's collapse, or else lied about them--or else placed her in a position that could have caused or certainly exacerbated her breathing problems. He also was off by several years when asked his wedding date, got his own mother's name wrong, etc. etc. . . . very poor memory and not good at facts in the kindest interpretation of his trial testimony. And yet he had a crystal-clear, certain memory of something Terri had said in 2 or 3 casual conversations several years before her collapse?

purple_kangaroo

As for the police report possibly being flawed, I suppose that's a remote possibility. But when Bobby, the police report, and some of Michael's own testimony agree that she was on her face, why would you assume that the police report is the one lying?

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