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« CSI: MEDBLOGS...AN ETHIOPIAN WOMAN DIES IN THE FORREST AND NO ONE HEARS | Main | Are Canadian Health Care Consumers Morons? »

Comments

SarahW

Aren't you kind of leaving out the due process that established Terri's wishes?

Would you feel the same if Terri had made a living will, but was now too incapacitated to "take it back"?

codeblueblogMD

I believe I am precisely talking about due process; namely, the decision of the Supreme Court NOT to hear this case when, two years ago they heard and ruled in favor of NOT actuating the deaths of severely mentally challenged murderers.

And, by the way, you can make out any living will you want, but if it tells me, as a doctor, to kill you -- well then put me in jail, because I'm not doing it.

That's not what being a doctor is all about. That's not why I went into medicine. I want people to live.

At the very least, people who want THIS kind of euthanasia should haver to specify, in writing, just who is to perform the deed.

Maybe YOU would want that job, Sarah? I can get you a black hood...

SarahW

There's a long tradition in the law that criminals have to KNOW they are being executed, have to realize the state is exacting justice. They aren't being put to sleep like rabid dogs, but are to be the recipients of justice for their crimes. This is one reason courts have held that non compis mentis persons can not be put to death.

Schiavo is not being punished. In fact, it is her wishes to refuse medical treatment unders certain conditions that is being honored, her wishes having been determined through court proceedings.

Under Florida law, she had the right to have her wishes honored.

I"m not sure if yo are opposed to removing the feeding tube of a person with severe permanent brain injury which prevents her having any conscious awareness ever again, or if you dispute the legal resolution that this is so.

You did not directly answer my query about living wills.

Entirely prompted by the Schiavo case, I executed such a will, witnessed and notorized. I would expect it to be honored within the parameters of the law.


codeblueblogMD

I guess by "long tradition" you mean since 2002 since that's when the Supreme Court made the ruling...

Insofar as Schiavo's wishes, I don't know if you are aware, but she did not write them down and they consist of her husband's rendition of her feelings that she expressed after watching the Karen Quinlan story on televison...

If it were her wish to be assassinated, would we allow it?

Since you are not sure what I am opposed to, let me spell it out for you: I am opposed to starving living beings to death.

The law does not allow me to crush a turtle egg but it wants to FORCE me to starve and dehydrate Terri Schiavo to death.

What YOU don't understand is that what started out as a movement, in the 1980's, to help TERMINALLY ill patients be comfortable while they are dying, has turned into a process where the COURTS can order a doctor to ACTUATE a death. THAT is what I am against.

I will make a terminally ill patient comfortable. I will not stop FEEDING someone in order that they will die.


I believe that this is wrong. It crosses the line. We are taking a woman who is at peace and unconscious and we are terminating her life.

I have more regard for life than that. You may not, for whatever reason. The courts may not, for whatever reason; but I, as a doctor, reject this process, and reject this ruling and stand horrified at a civilization that puts you in jail for crushing a turtle egg and will also put you in jail for refusing to kill a person BECAUSE THEIR MENTAL SKILLS AND ABILITIES ARE DEEMED TOO INSIGNIFICANT FOR US TO CARE FOR.

Let me ask YOU -- where will we draw the line?

I hope you plotted out your living will carefully, because if you are in a peaceful vegetative state when they yank your feeding tube and the next day a stem cell research breakthrough leads to the regeneration of neural tissue, then you won't get the new treatment. You'll get the dessication and anorexia treatment until your muscles waste to tissue paper and your body autodigests into macerated debris, your arms contract and you slowly, horribly die.

Dev the medical student

Sarah:

You should also be aware that not only were Schiavo's "wishes" never written, there are strong reasons for believing she would not want to be starved to death. She and her parents opposed euthanasia for religious reasons (they are Roman Catholic), and Terry was always, when able-bodied, an active Catholic with her parents. They wish desparately to take care of her, and affirm that she would not want to be starved to death. Michael, Terry's husband, has repeatedly fought (and often successfully), to prevent Terry from having any contact with her parents. Here the state wants to kill a woman by starvation, EVEN THOUGH HER PARENTS WANT TO DO EVERYTHING TO CARE FOR HER.

Her husband is engaged to another woman by whom he has two children. When Terry dies, Michael will be able to marry this woman. He started comitting adultery with her before Terry was incapacitated (not that that's any better than comitting adultery while you're wife is alive but in a hospital).

Also know: I don't know the details of her state now, but Terry smiled, responded to touch, tried to sit up, and responded to her parents' voices. Hardly "prevented from having any conscious awareness ever again." Also, c'mon, doctors and other professionals are NOTORIOUS for predicting such things incorrectly. I would never gamble on Terry's condition especially when it's the doctors her husband's lawyers hired that are willing to call her a vegetable, while other doctors have refuted them.

WriteWingBlogger

I posted a little on this topic yesterday, including this:

>>In 1981 a number of organizations, including the American Bar Association and the American Medical Association, developed the Uniform Determination of Death Act. The act states, "[a]n individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the brain, including the brain stem, is dead."<<

Terri still HAS brain stem activity, else she wouldn't be able to breathe, maintain a pulse, etc. -- I don't think a lot of people understand this.

In this situation, in lieu of a written living will by Terri -- I personally feel the decision should be made by a blood relative. In this case her parents. Then also as you mention -- why should any MD feel he HAS to carry out these wishes?

It's nice to hear an MD speak his mind on this subject, thanks!

Earl E. Appleby, Jr.

Having assisted families like the Schindlers combating euthanasia targeted at their loved ones for more than 20 years, I can attest that euthanasia is rarely chosen by its victims. Indeed, often the family is unaware it is taking place.

It is encouraging to see that there are still a few doctors who uphold the ideals of Hippocratic medicine. Primum non nocere. May their tribe increase!

For ongoing coverage of the fight to save Terri, see CURE's blog Life Matters! and call on me ([email protected]) if I may ever be of help.

Earl
Director, Citizens United Resisting Euthanasia (CURE)
Berkeley Springs, WV

Dev the medical student

I am *so surprised* that the last commenter posted anonymously.

I am also intimidates by the impressive force of his argument and the richness of his vocabulary.

CodeBlueBlogMD

Dev:

I deleted that comment.

I don't mind taking shots for my opinions and posts, but commentors should know that vulgar personal attacks will not be allowed, nor will scatalogical comments that have no bearing on the topic.

jb

Let's take it easy on the Court. Despite what many may think, it is not the Court's duty to to decide what most people think is best, and then vote that way. The Court's duty is to decide how the law applies to a particular situation, or to declare the law invalid if it conflicts with the Constitution. The Court is not there to "take up the slack" when the legislature does a lousy job of writing laws (unless it is unconstitutional). The legislature has passed laws stating that the spouse decides when the patient is not able to. In this case, that appears to be a bad thing, because the spouse appears to be looking out for #1 instead of poor Terri. Now we want the law to really mean that it applies only if the spouse agrees with the rest of us. That's not the way the law reads. Do we really want a court to decide these matters routinely? Do we want the general public (i.e., us) having anything to say in the matter when we have a brain injury? If you do, ask your legislators to write the law that way. A law can't be written that makes everyone happy with the outcome 100% of the time. I agree that in this case the outcome is bad, but one bad outcome is not enough to change a law.

CodeBlueBlogMD

Right.

Let's forget the fairy tales. Activists courts (especially the Supreme Court) have been taking the law into their own ideologically stained hands for a long time. Give me a break.

They hear a case about a degenerate murderer stalker who stabbed a cheerleader in the chest with a scissors ten times until the cardiac and pulmonic perforations caused her to bleed to death -- and they say that this savage murderer -- who had enough intelligence to stalk his victim, pick her out, wait for a vulnerable moment and slaughter heR...he's too retarded to face the death penalty. That's a case they choose to hear.

But they won't even consider evaluating the case of a woman who never hurt anyone, who is by all admissions peaceful and comfortable and feeling no pain -- AND LIVING -- and yet who the state has determined shall be dessicated to death...THIS CASE THEY WON'T HEAR?

If we all agreed that the courts are only to interpret the law and the constitution, then I would live by that. But the courts -- especially the Supreme Court -- have long thought of themselves in a much different light...a legislative light.

So don't hide behind the court's strict interpretation of the law only when it suits you, please.

anonymous

MedBlogs have certainly helped to make me rethink my stance on euthanasia. CodeBlue your searing comparison of the Schiavo case with the case of a stalker-murderer and by comparing what Ms. Shiavo's death will entail vs. the of type of death an executed prisoner experiances, validates your opposition to the removal of Ms. Schiav's feeding tube.

In your response to SarahW's comment you state "...what started out as a movement, in the 1980's, to help TERMINALLY ill patients be comfortable while they are dying, has turned into a process where the COURTS can order a doctor to ACTUATE a death." Very scary -- a cleaned up version of a soldier pointing assigning a line--the line on the right, you live; the line on the left you die. For another interesting post regarding euthansia, take a look at The Doctor is In's post of December 5, 2004 -- The Children Whom Reason Scorns.

tim

I note that Terri's husband noted marked improvement and told the court he was going to become a nurse and care for her for the rest of his life - while he was suing her doctor for medical negligence. He wanted $20 million but was awared in the neighborhood of $1 million. Afterwards, every action he took was aimed at her demise.

WebNews

THE SAGA OF TERRI SCHIAVO
Terri breathes on her on and maintains her own blood pressure, she requires a simple tube into her abdomen to her stomach for nourishment and hydration.

Cozy Bunch of Killers:
Judge George Greer:
"I don't want anyone trying to feed that girl," Greer thundered.
Ruler of the Kangaroo Court set on killing Terri Schiavo. Worked side by side as county commissioner with Barbara Sheen Todd (county commissioner) for eight YEARS. Barbara Sheen Todd is on the board of the hospice. Also, Judge Greer's fellow judge, Judge John Lenderman is the brother of Martha Lenderman (also on the hospice board! And more.....
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/terri.htm
---------------------------------
Michael's 6'6" - probably 260 pounds, and he, he's very intimidating physically. Uh, I think he bullies girls around as much as he can. I think he intimidates women.
What is Michael Schiavo afraid of? Did he abuse his wife? Was it his fault that that she was disabled?
See http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_michael.htm

Terri's Hope

TAKE ACTION Email Judge Greer
Judge Set To Starve Terri Schiavo To Death (Info for Judge Greer at bottom)
Terri Schiavo's life hangs in the balance. Your actions could help prevent her from being starved to death.
Sixth Judicial Circuit Judge George Greer has put a temporary stay on his order to pull the tube on Terri and let her die a slow, agonizing death by starvation. Here is the short version of what's happening.
In 1990, Terri suffered a serious brain injury. In a 2000 trial Terri's husband asked for the feeding tube to be removed. He had abandoned their marriage long ago by living with another woman and having two children with her. He has claimed hundreds of thousands of dollars from disability insurance.
According to Tony Perkins at Family Research Council, her husband pocketed the money and let Terri live without the medical attention he had promised to provide.
Terri's parents want to take care of her, but her husband wants her to die. The court has sided with the husband. Terri's parents have renounced any settlement claims and are willing to care for their daughter at their own expense. The judge has refused to grant their request.
In Florida, starving an animal is a criminal offense but starving a disabled woman is not.
Please ask Judge Greer not to punish an innocent, disabled woman by starving her to death. **Lisa is adding this... Ask him to allow her to have her day in court and for this case to be INVESTAGATED NOW!
TAKE ACTION
Please send the e-mail to Judge Greer asking him not to kill Terri. Please NO treats, that will not save Terri's life. And I personally know her family, they are good people, they would NEVER want that. Hugs, Lisa
Judge George Greer FAX (727) 736-5050
Judge Greer Email Addy [email protected]
Rm. 484, 315 Court Street
Clearwater, FL 33756
Primary Phone: (727) 464-3933
Sincerely,

Don

Donald E. Wildmon, Founder and Chairman
American Family Association

P.S. Please forward this email to family and friends.

Judge George Greer
Judge Greer
Rm. 484, 315 Court Street
Clearwater, FL 33756
Primary Phone: (727) 464-3933
E-Mail: Judge George Greer, Judge Greer

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Hanna

If anyone is interested in some facts, please read the "Guardian's Dec. 2003 report to Gov. Bush" posted on www.OrlandoSentinel.com/schiavo

This is the 38 page report created by Dr. Jay Wolfson who was her guardian as a result of Governor Bush's Terri's Law. This report is the one the governor called for. It provides Terri's entire health history, court testimony and the opinions of the neurologists and neurosurgeons. Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid. That alone renders her PVS.

The report found that Michael Schiavo was an attentive and loving husband to Terri. He was relentless with nursing home staff and created a scene if any part of Terri's care was amiss. Terri's parents signed over guardianship to Michael - that's how much they knew he loved her and was caring for her.

The most disturbing aspect of the Schindler's behavior has been that they stated, in court testimony, that even if Terri had expressed wishes of not wanting to be artificially nurished in her present circumstances, they still would not allow the tube's removal. Additionally, they testified that they would keep her alive "at any and all costs," even if that meant to amputate her limbs.

With parents like those, who needs enemies?

Whatever your personal views, it doesn't change the medical, scientific fact that Terri Schiavo is PVS with no hope of recovery.

ANGEL

Terri Schiavo should live .Terri has a purpose , it is for her parents .( PLEASE SAVE TERRI ) HAVE MERCEY U CAN NOT STARVE TERRI!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT.

Alicia

You in USA are so worried by the destiny of one poor woman who will very probably not think, not eat,not walk in the future....
Why you are not so anxious by the destiny of about tens of thousands healthy,innocent people who died last two years in Iraq?

Chris

Pull the plug! What value does her life hold? NONE.

What about the kids killing other kids? Why don't you get morally outraged over that? What's that you say, they're non-white, non-christians? Oh, well, by all means, disregard THAT suffering. What about all the pain and suffering in Iraq? What's that, you say - They don't believe in your god? Well, by all means, blow them to hell and back.

We don't need your morals shoved down our throats. We don't need your hypocritical, duplicitous filth to run our lives. Neither does Terri. Let her have peace. After all, don't you all believe she'll be in a better place....?

Shela

I do have a living will and a loving brother who will execute my wishes.

However, Michael Schiavo abandoned his wife, taking another unto himself (I would certainly hope he loves her and his children with her or I pity her if she has a tragedy occur in her life - I would suggest she at least make certain someone other than Michael is in charge of her dying), refusing a divorce (remember now he is not the Catholic in this matter)and to top it all off refused to all the Schindler's to bury their daughter according to the Catholif beliefs.

Some would say, why did he set up a trust fund for her with all that money then? He must have loved her. Probably because the court ordered it that way! Remember he got the first $300,000.

I just know that I would not want such a soul-less person to be in charge of taking away my nutrition. I saw an aunt and grandmother die and they were vegetative for more than 4 yaers each. Didn't know a soul, didn't move, didn't act like anything bothered them, just slept all the time but nobody sentenced them to die.

This woman was loved by her parents who only wanted the opportunity to take care of the person they so dearly loved.

Having worked for attorneys for more than 20 years, I know with all my heart that Michael stands to receive money from Terri's death. That is why he has fought so hard to have her murdered.

I am sorry but this case has everything to do with greed and absolutely nothing to do with what Terri supposedly wanted. I find it very strange that her parents and her brother and sister never knew she wanted to be started to death. I don't hate Michael. I pity him for when he meets God wow - I personally have enough of my own to answer for but so far I don't have the blood of an innocent person on my hands.

If there were no other way, then I personally would want that for myself. But her parents wanted her. How can anyone be so cruel as to deprive a parent of such love. I wonder how her would feel if one of his children had to have their plugs pulled? Probably wouldn't bother him at all. He has the eyes of a cold-blooded person.

It just makes my skin crawl.

pc93

See my blog Teknosis:

http://tekgnosis.typepad.com

It has a post that includes an e-mail from Dr. "Death" Cranford.

Also here was my latest post to my Terri's Justice Yahoo!Group
members:

The following was a challenge given out [Ed. note: which has now been slightly modified April 18, 2005] and also included below is a URL for our press release:

From your friendly neighborhood moderator/creator of terrisjustice. See below. We have been challenged and now I must issue my challenge to you.

Those in the pinnacles of authority [Jeb Bush and others] believe that we are going to melt away and give up seeking justice for Terri.

The famous motto of the Zapatistas is one response of ours in this regard: Ya Basta!

We will never surrender! We will never tire!

Challenge to you: go out and inform 10 other people what happened to Terri. Get them signed on terrisjustice. Ask them to do the same.

This is how the grassroots grows and is the only true means of getting a true geometrical progression realized.

If you are not for getting justice for Terri against those with blood on their hands do not join this list. If you are a spy or have mal-intents and you try to join or succeed in joining please leave the list or it may be that one day you will die a horrible death not at our hands but as a result of your disingenuous actions which resulted in karmic repercussions. This is a form of what is called felos-de-se (a senseless or purposeful act of self-murder).

NOTE:

A great deal of lee-way is necessary, given the scope of the work, and I am committed to freedom of expression. HOWEVER, it does sometimes become necessary to remind ourselves of our purpose and the basic rules of etiquette when communicating with others.

Flame wars and attacks on the character of others are not allowed on this list, and other members of the list not involved should not be subjected to emails containing such material - carry them on in private please if you must, or more adult behavior, don't indulge in them at all.

We will remind once in awhile if things get a little out of hand, and any continued offense will be dealt with by either a moderation of the posts of the offender(s) or, when all else fails, a complete ban on those posts, especially when several complaints have been received from offended list members.

We have never had to take action in some years of doing this, and we hope this will never be necessary. Thank you for your support, and may your experience on this list be as enjoyable as it is informative.

URL for press release [also contained in Yahoo! News]:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/4/prweb229498.php

JS

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