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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference CSI MEDBLOGS: YUSHCHENKO'S DISEASE: A TALE OF TWO POISONS :

» Yushchenko: Is Alcohol His Poison? from Amy Ridenour's National Center Blog
As Ukraine prepares for yet another presidential election Sunday, CodeBlueBlog remains convinced that opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko's disfigurement is not [Read More]

» Yuschenko's Disease: Medblogger suggests a tale of two poisons. from Hyscience
It appears that the Rudolfinerhaus clinic may be more of a "Betty Ford" clinic than a place to go for critical care - which is where one with an acute medical problem would be expected to head to pronto. CodeBlueBlog just isn't convinced that Ukraine o... [Read More]

» CBB back on the case from blogs for industry
Code Blue has another post on the Yushchenko poisoning case, including a link to the case report from the Rudolfinerhaus clinic. Bottom line: CBB still thinks the Sept. symptoms are consistent with alcoholic pancreatitis and other manifestations of al... [Read More]

» Mrs. Victor Yushchenko from Amy Ridenour's National Center Blog
Every now and then, I read something in the newspaper that really knocks my socks off, and this is one of those times. [Read More]

Comments

TPB, Esq.

Regardless of the alleged motives behind causing Yushchenko's ingestion of dioxin, the thing you don't address in the above essay is where there is a non-troubling justification for his ingestion of dioxin. In other words, if Yuschenko could have ingested it by accident by, say, taking dioxin proscribed for another (isn't it used to treat supraventrical tachycardia), wouldn't this make the story different.

Putting it a different way: let's take the Occam's Razor approach. Yuschenko has a toxin in his system. Yes, he's apparently an alcoholic and he had three types of liquor (in unknown quantities) that night. Is that necessarily relevant to the ingestion of the toxin? If he did ingest the toxin, as it seems, what are the possible causes of ingestion?

We're professionals, we lawyers and doctors, and we should probably leave conjecture to journalists (forgive my bias, but they're not necessarily a professional profession, so to speak), but it's interesting to consider the basic question of causation with regard to this toxin.

per

You are building your argument on sand.
1) If you assume that TCDD was administered during his meal with the secret service, your conclusion (1) follows. But the problem is that you are claiming god-like knowledge of when and who poisoned him. It could well be that the TCDD was administered earlier than this. If this is so, the september symptoms could have been a result of the tcdd toxicity.
2/3) There is no reason why alcoholics cannot be poisoned (by TCDD), and it would not be a surprise if acute TCDD poisoning had a synergistic effect with chronic alcoholism. None of which detracts from the main issue, which appears to be the massive amounts of TCDD he has.
4) You quote various "experts" on why dioxin is a bad poison; but the only thing in common that these "experts" have is lack of knowledge of dioxins, and poisoning. For example, Sella appears to be an inorganic chemist.
two of the examples given, strychnine and cyanide, are in fact useless poisons; because they act so quickly, and are so easily detected. The murder is seen for what it is.
VY could well have died before he developed chloracne. If so, no-one would have thought of dioxin. You can only detect dioxin, if you are looking for it. That sounds like a good poison to me.
per


per

There is some stuff reported which does seem bizarre.
1) VY is reported to be going to get a skin transplant. Won't work for dioxin poisoning
2) vy's levels of tcdd are now back to normal. Cannot be so, for the half-life reasons you made clear.
per

MaDhOuSe MaDmAn

I admire you for your continued resilience. but please: STOP IT!
;-}
merry christmas

CodeBlueBlogMD

Well, people requested a follow-up to explain where I stood given the revelations...but I promise to try and resist.

Back at you... :-)

kyan gadac

I'm sceptical about the claim that outright fraud would have to occur in multiple locations. Firstly, the only repoted level is in a mysterious quantity called "units" . Secondly, contaminating a sample would be dead easy. I haven't seen enough evidence here or elsewhere that tcdd has actually been found in a blood or other sample from VY.

CodeBlueBlogMD

I think you are correct.

Since posting I've learned that the Yushchenko blood samples that were tested were drawn at Rudolfinerhaus and "sent" to a clinic in Amsterdam.

In my original post regarding this weekend farce, of December 13th, I questioned why Yushchenko would go to Vienna to have a blood sample drawn and sent to Amsterdam for a diagnosis.

It's likely the obvious reason.

Niko

Something you might have missed (I will cross-comment this at Trans-Int, too):

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041217-070555-7473r.htm

"Soon after Yushchenko first claimed he had been poisoned, President Leonid Kuchma's son-in-law engaged a French public relations team to initiate a media campaign, centered on a Vienna clinic, calculated to disparage the poisoning accusations, the newspaper said.

Yffic Nouvellon of EuroRSCG and his public relations team arranged a press conference where Lothar Wicke, general manager of Vienna's Rudolfinerhaus Clinic, contradicted Yushchenko's poisoning allegations.

Nouvellon also contacted international media offering "evidence" Yushchenko had not been poisoned. When asked during the media campaign, Nouvellon denied any connections to Kuchma's family."

Niko

Another twist:

http://yorkshire-ranter.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_yorkshire-ranter_archive.html#110337430741297928

"[According to a Financial Times story which is not accessibly to non-subscribers] it seems that Dr. Wicke is an intimate of Leonid Kuchma and doctor to many of those close to him. (Kuchma's children, it turns out, were born in the Vienna clinic.) When Yushchenko pitched up in the place riddled with dioxins, Kuchma made a dash to Vienna accompanied by a group of spin doctors hired from the French PR firm EuroRSCG, who persuaded Wicke to hold a press conference denying the suggestion that the illness was indeed poisoning."

But then I wonder why Yushchenko would seek that clinic at first.

Niko

It turns out that Yorkshire Ranter's summary is misleading. Here's the original FT article from Google's cache:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:kcPLVAO7qNYJ:news.ft.com/cms/s/562812c6-4f8d-11d9-86b3-00000e2511c8.html+financial+times+wicke+eurorscg&hl=de

(...) Soon after Mr Yushchenko first claimed he had been poisoned, in a speech to parliament on September 21, Mr Kuchma's businessman son-in-law, Viktor Pinchuk, travelled to Vienna and discussed the claims with doctors at the Rudolfinerhaus clinic. He and his wife - Mr Kuchma's daughter, Elena Franchuk - had established contacts with Vienna's tight-knit medical community when their daughter was born in a different Vienna hospital in June 2003.

A team of public relations experts from EuroRSCG, part of the Paris-based Havas Group, also came to Vienna, headed by Yffic Nouvellon, who had worked with Mr Pinchuk and Ms Franchuk in Kiev.

Mr Nouvellon's team arranged a press conference where Lothar Wicke, the Rudolfinerhaus's general manager, contradicted Mr Yushchenko's poisoning allegations. Mr Nouvellon also contacted international media, including the Financial Times, offering evidence that Mr Yushchenko had not been poisoned.

Mr Nouvellon did not reveal his connection to Mr Pinchuk, and when confronted about it insisted he did not know Mr Pinchuk and that he had never been to Kiev. Michael Zimpfer, the Rudolfinerhaus's president, said he had cut the clinic's contact with Mr Nouvellon's team after Mr Yushchenko had informed him of EuroRSCG's ties to the Kuchma family.

"It was a big mistake to involve a company that was clearly biased to one side," Dr Zimpfer said.

Mr Pinchuk said he and his media businesses, which carried reports casting doubt on the poisoning allegations, "had only one goal, to find the truth. All our investigations at that time showed no trace of poisoning."

Jim Hu

My latest thoughts on this in the trackback above. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the team that was providing care:
"At present the patient is under the round-the-clock medical observation by the following doctors:
Univ. Dr. M. Zimpfer; anesthesia and intensive medicine
medical officer Dr. Andorfer; neurology
medical officer Prim. Dr. J. Szimak; general practitioner
Dr. Michitsch; general practitioner
Univ. Prof. Dr. E.M. Kokoschka; skin and reproductive organs
medical officer Univ. Prof. Dr. M. Zrunek; ENT specialist
Univ. Prof. Dr. L. Wicke; radiologist
Univ. Prof. Dr. A. Neuhold; radiologist
Univ. Prof. Dr. E. Ecker; orthopedic surgeon in cases of accidents
Univ. Prof. Dr. N. Korpan; general surgeon."

Doesn't seem like the distribution of specialties I'd expect, but maybe they're different in Austria. Wouldn't there be a gastroenterologist if it was here? I guess Kokoschka would handle the dermatology. The description of treatment also seems weird to me..." anesthetization and blood transfusion" ...or is that what he got from Korpan before going to Vienna?

per

Why have blood samples taken in Austria, and analysed elsewhere ?
Dioxin analysis labs are specialised chemical labs, which by and large do not have medics attached to them. Medic takes blood tissue sample in Austria, and chemists analyse where their instruments are. No conspiracy here...
per

per

Chain of evidence
there is a requirement for a chain of evidence if ever there is to be a prosecution. That is to say that police will have to supervise the process of blood sampling and analysis.
I am thinking that the conspiracy theory analysis is very high risk. If Vy has doped his blood samples, then this is going to be very obvious very fast.
per

Jim Hu

Per,

I agree that it makes sense that the labs are not where the clinic is. But why travel so far for a blood sample in the first place? One possibiity is conspiracy, but I think that it is more likely that the explanation is paranoia - Yushchenko's people fear tampering of any sample taken in Kyiv, or anywhere else within Ukranian borders.

But I'm not sure that doping would be detected later...who else would get access to samples from him?

per

Jim Hu
VY has promised a police investigation post election. If that happens, the police will have to take blood under defined circumstances, where the biological samples are under constant observation, from taking the sample through to analysis.
it will be interesting to see.
per

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